Fuck Religion

Organised religion can be a cruel beast at times. Take this news item, of a 1st Gulf War navy veteran, whose memorial service was cancelled in Texas - because he was gay.

So he loves other men. Ok, well each to their own. But the response by the church here strikes me as a rather vicious consequence of adhering to dogmatic organised religion. In these religions, everything is fine - as long as you play by the 'rules'. You'll be happy, contented and go to 'heaven'. If not you're fucked - the religious will condemn you and you'll burn in hell with satan. How wise the god of these religions is! He uses an astronomically sized carrot and stick to control your actions. Why the fuck 'he' would want to do so in the first place is a mystery.

That's why I am an atheist. Organised religion is one of the most fucked up legacies of ancient humanity. Wake up humanity, perlease.

Check this out: Ethical Atheists Ten Commandments

Oh and this cheered me up

34 Responses to “Fuck Religion”

  1. # Blogger lone star

    ahh!!!! (screaming)
    religion giving "god" a bad name everywhere it goes!
    ...and me - a never ending headache, not to mention wrinkles and gray hairs!!
    my brain hurts now...
    and the whole god topic is the one that gets me to boiling point, from both the religious and non religious sides of the argument....
    but I'll spare everyone from my rant!
    and I'm not taking it out on you, you did direct this post towards "organized" religion.
    Love how the church here called it "principle"...sigh.

    ps. believe it or not a person can be christian and love science too.
    I really really hate labels!!! ..... so you have to be "athiest" to live according to the "code" linked? huh? that must make the God I know and jesus too, for his teachings... athiests?
    grrr grrr grrr.
    ok # 7 (I think) could be debated ... not sure what I think about the "one" life thing yet .. the time space continuim and all.
    :P  

  2. # Blogger jonz

    I'm glad you noticed my pop at organised religion, as opposed to god per se.

    I am not anti-god,just anti-the-god-that many adherents to organised religion speak of.

    If there were a god, which I cannot believe there is, but if there was one, he or she or it would be super intelligent, compassionate, creative and not at all judgemental and fiery. But that's just really a bit like fairies at the end of the garden. Nice concept.  

  3. # Blogger lone star

    well I always say to people if there is no higher power to you...then theres not!
    just when each side of the argument starts calling the other stupid that I get upset. Everyone is diffrent.
    and really history and life are just as full of brilliant, genius, sane and logical people who did believe.
    ....and ummm yeah... what you describe above is "god" oviously...
    what idot would want to worship a stupid, merciless,destructive, condeming .....seems to define everything anti god...

    what do mean there are no faries!!!!???  

  4. # Anonymous Anonymous

    "Organised religion is one of the most fucked up legacies of ancient humanity. Wake up humanity, perlease"

    Yes thats right. Not Nazism that wiped out millions or the atheist communists who wiped out further millions or Empire building that ransacked countries. Not American presidents who walked native americans off their homelands. Not sectarian violence as was found with three bickering countries arguing over Ireland and borders. Not socialism that ensures people are state run and told what to do and kept down. Or capitalism that ensures people screw over the poor. Not eugenics a scientific 'philosophical' based ideology the nazis adopted to wipe out an entire race because of their religion. No no. Just religion. Atheists must really believe their own hype.  

  5. # Blogger jonz

    "Anonymous"

    Anon, I am sorry but that is both hilarious and pathetic!

    Here's the "atheist" Adolf Hitler in his own words in Mein Kampf

    The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfil God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated.

    For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other.

    Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.


    How many atheists have you ever know to kill in the NAME of atheism? NONE!

    Your argument is so weak it is laughable. The rest I will not engage as it is rather a lame concept. I.e. because there's other reasons for death and destruction then there's nothing wrong with religion. Ok!

    Admit it, MILLIONS have been KILLED in the NAME of Christianity and Islam. And you know it, and that's what gets you so worked up. ;)

    I'll repeat for the hard of hearing, there have been NO historical figures who have killed in the NAME of atheism.

    Both the Old Testament and Islam are quite horrific testaments (forgive the pun) to the nature of organised religion and it's relationship to humanity.

    the treatment of women as second class citizens, the stoning of adulterers, genocide, intolerance and furious anger feature in both.

    Great role models, kids!  

  6. # Anonymous Anonymous

    You are the one thats penned a rather angry post called Fuck Religion. I would tell atheists to get fucked but why should I? Thats just intolerant, angry and a bit hate filled. I do find it hilarious when atheists insist on being so self righteous and make random generalisations as if the world would somehow steer itself onto a peaceful course if only people didnt believe in God. Lets put it this way....I like religion. I like believing in God, it helps me find peace in life - and i can distinguish between well meaning religious types and the trult self righteous who get all worked up and insist they right about any number of things.

    Hitler used eugenics man. And communists i suppose werent really atheists. And the secular French republic didnt go about randomly slaughtering people in The Terror. And Empires didnt remove people wholesale etc.

    Nice try - but the point i was making is that i think youll find that with or without religion the world is a fucked up place with all sorts of horrors committed for all sorts of reasons and all sorts of big swinging dicks.  

  7. # Blogger jonz

    Angry! LOL. How many of my "kind" will kill in the name of not believing in Sky Fairies?!!

    Anyho, you've inspired me to make a new post

    Yeah the worlds fucked. But that ain't my fault ;) If people weren't so stoopid...  

  8. # Blogger lone star

    dont you just love when people read your post without really reading it?
    and ignore the comments following as well.
    I didnt find this post angry at all?
    you even started it with the word "sometimes"...
    and its funny annon quoted from it the line that says both ... "one of"
    and "legacy of ancient humanity"

    anon....
    I too like having the freedom to believe in God, in fact I center my life around it .... and I ask a very large amount of questions, (something that seems to be frowned upon in religion) which is why I agree with what jonz has said regaurding "organized religion" needing to progress with todays modern world. and if you had read his comments under the post you would have seen he said he is not anti god....
    though I am begining to wonder if "religion" is actually UN organized since it is currently so split and open to opinion, not to mention the very word "god" can take on any form and role a person wishes, and usually for their own benifit.
    wikapedia has a great section on "athieism".... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

    lone star  

  9. # Anonymous Anonymous

    You see, Lone Star starting a post with Fuck Religion kind of made me think the post was angry. Its sad people have to be so intransigeant that they cant see religion for what it is and man for who he is. Flawed.

    The Old Testament lays down in Exodus the Ten Commandments as given to Moses, the injunction in Leviticus to love our neighbour as ourselves, and generally the importance of observing a strict code of law. The New Testament is a record of the Incarnation, the teachings of Christ, and the establishment of the kingdom of God. Again we have the emphasis on loving our neighbour as ourselves and to 'Do-as-you-would-be-done-by.'

    by taking together these key elements from the Old and New Testaments, we gain a view of the universe, a proper attitude to work and principles to shape economic and social life as we know it. Legacy you think?. We are told we must work and use our talents. We are a nation whose ideals are founded on the Bible. Also, it is quite impossible to understand our history or literature without grasping this fact. Judaic-Christian tradition has played in moulding our laws, manners, and institution. How can you make sense of Shakespeare and Sir Walter Scott, or of the constitutional conflicts of the seventeenth century in both Scotland and England, without some such knowledge of that part of its *legacy*.

    That ancient legacy, you see, has given us the Rule of Law. A good basic premise which was founded by those same ancients, but is lost on some in search of a reason to chalk up hatred of religious people because one group chooses to espouse hatred. No more so than any other group in history.

    In the absence of sky fairies communists managed and manage to murder rather a large number of people and deprive then of rights ..as have many despots.. angry secularists created the word 'terror'. The world is fucked because its full of, well, man really, and blowhards of all descriptions from atheists through to the Pope.

    Check out the love:

    "In the remote north-eastern corner of North Korea, close to the border of Russia and China, is Haengyong. Hidden away in the mountains, this remote town is home to Camp 22 - North Korea's largest concentration camp, where thousands of men, women and children accused of political crimes are held.

    Now, it is claimed, it is also where thousands die each year and where prison guards stamp on the necks of babies born to prisoners to kill them.

    Witnesses have described watching entire families being put in glass chambers and gassed. They are left to an agonising death while scientists take notes. The allegations offer the most shocking glimpse so far of Kim Jong-il's North Korean regime

    Most are imprisoned because their relatives are believed to be critical of the regime. Many are Christians, a religion believed by Kim Jong-il to be one of the greatest threats to his power"

    "Revealed: the gas chamber horror of North Korea's gulag"

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,1136483,00.html

    An atheist's 'humanity' to man?  

  10. # Blogger lone star

    anon,
    I still don't see what your getting at? But I would love to continue the conversation! As far as the post and your initial defensive attack on jonz, I will continue to defend both!
    He said nothing wrong in this post or in his comments under it. I believe most "religious" people can also be labeled as intransigeant. Though I DO see a need for religion to exist for many reasons, I disagree with how you have described ....

    "man as who he is - flawed."

    As a person seeking to know and understand "god" in truth ... I would change that statment to read not "who" man is but "what", and the answer from "flawed" to "evolving".
    - trust me there is a very very long and complex explination to that.
    The thing with people always bringing up religious text in an argument... is they usually take it as fundalmental and literal! ignoring all history, culture ...even the pshycology behind it. you have chose the word legecy?...
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=RNFA,RNFA:1970--2,RNFA:en&defl=en&q=define:legacy&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
    I love multiple choice definitions!! and for this topic relating to religion... I pick the ones about - outdated computer programs as best fitting.
    the passing down of things as tradition can be kind of stupid in some sense, especially when knowledge is involved. The world continues to grow, It changes, advancements are made in everyway .... God would also change according to present needs. I think this is reflected in the constant refrence to "water" in scripture.
    anything that does not, is stagnet
    dead and decaying.
    The things you add about north korea are horrible indeed, the world is full of idiots and monsters of all belief systems just like you said ? so ... I ask why so upset by this post to begin with? especially since he added a link to his own "atheist" views that really mirror what any person of religion should practice?
    The do unto others thing needs some thinking about too! personally if the dress makes my ass look fat, I want to be told "yes! it does!! and if my ass IS actually fat! if I like the dress enough I shouldnt care!  

  11. # Blogger jonz

    "Anonymous", another very weak knee-jerk reaction.

    North Korea does this in the name of political power and perverted ideology. Not in the NAME of Ahtiesm!

    Hitler considered himself a CHRISTIAN. Indeed, in Mein Kampf he invoked the word of god several times. Does this mean Christianity was responsible for his horrors? Of course not - you'd have to be pretty stupid to put 2 + 2 together to get 5.

    Anon, have I asked for the Christianity or Judaism to be wiped from history? It was quintessential to the forming of modern society, to the pre-enlightenment period. However, the notion of sky fairies and their myths in the modern day world, is, to me, laughable.

    I think the teachings of the likely historical figure Jesus to be one the whole, noble and compassionate. Yet the most ardent Christian state in the US is Texas - with 400 executions sine 1982. Go figure!

    Now, was this due to the teaching of Jesus, or the ancient angry and vengeful teachings of the Old Testament I wonder?

    Now, if you could provide deaths in the NAME of atheism I would be ever so grateful ;)

    Men never do evil so cheerfully and so completely as when they do so from religious conviction.

    -Blaise Pascal  

  12. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Not at all knee jerk when you view the comment as a considered thoughtful response to, um, Fuck Religion.

    "North Korea does this in the name of political power and perverted ideology. Not in the NAME of Ahtiesm!"

    Hitler carved up Europe for power, ego and Empire, jealousy in particular of not being in charge ..as the Brits were. Why do you suppose he saw London as the crown. He didnt declare war in the name of christianity merely used it as a means to an end. He also dabbled in that scientific babble eugenics. Yuck.

    Indeed communism invokes the use of atheism several times throughout its ideology as a means to an end, much like Hitler espoused religious belief. Ultimately wherever you find egos with their dicks in one hand and their self righteous beliefs in the other you find trouble.

    This is boring now. Are you going to come back with anything substantive?

    If you could please explaim why christians are being murdered brutally by an atheist who like you is shitting his pants about christianity id be grateful. And explain the use of scientists standing by chalking up notes as they watch people die horrible deaths in his very non religious gulags. Nothing to see here folks its got nothing to do with religion you see...lol

    "Men never do evil so cheerfully and so completely as when they do so from religious conviction"

    Skipping over the horrors of North Korea, communism and assorted despots eh...;) dear oh dear oh dear.

    And as for the assorted americans you posted above who later ensured they frogmarched hundreds of thousands of native americans off their homelands and rounded them into camps, i suppose we ignore that too.

    You see unlike you i can pick the bad apples out of religion and acknowledge their universal failings as humans using any excuse for power as a means to an end. I dont however pretend that religion is the sole arbiter of hatred, violence and murder on the planet. Thats the trouble with you hellfire atheists, you sound too much like the fist thumping blowhards in the pulpit.  

  13. # Anonymous Anonymous

    lonestar - i like your comments but you should learn to take a stand when people become intransigeant. Where you say 'religion giving "god" a bad name everywhere it goes!' i think youll find that its man, ego, and socio-political control. Its sad that enlightenment values, when they finally employed Reason, never did extend to women dont you find? So much for that! Question everything (which i think you do) but ego, the quest for power and intransigenace are culpable of a lot which is wrong with this planet. From what ive seen it eminates from the religious and non religious alike. There is nothing as beautiful as a religious person who devout in his beliefs shows no hint of religiosity, only kindness. the good deeds that have emerged are numerous. But that does not mean he didnt learn to be devout *through* religion. Its complex I know. Fuck religion? bla bla hate religion hate hate hate. No. That cant be good. Not unless there is an abject refusal to accept reason and progress which cannot be said to be true of all three large faiths, in spite of the imperfections manifest in Reason when it appeared on the scene.

    In short. Unless you are dealing with diehards and unless a religion is a threat to the state - Find the middle way.

    Ciao  

  14. # Blogger jonz

    I think you need to re-read what I have actually said rather than creating straw-man arguments.

    "dont however pretend that religion is the sole arbiter of hatred, violence and murder on the planet. Thats the trouble with you hellfire atheists, you sound too much like the fist thumping blowhards in the pulpit."

    Based on a completely false assumption! Pray do tell where I assert religion is the soul arbiter of hatred and violence!!!

    You know that Islamic militants behead kill and repress in the name of their religion.. don't you? Dare I mention 9/11?

    Religious nuts all over the world are trying to overthrow governments to replace it with a religious tyranny.

    Communism really isn't a threat. They lost. It's 2007 now. One of the biggest threats we face is from religious nutters, such as the Shiite extremists getting hold of nuclear weapons.

    If you want to believe in sky fairies that's up to you. If you want to defend religious zealotry thats up to you.

    But I reserve the right to say you are talking utter and complete bollocks! I am sorry you are so offended. Perhaps you wouldn't be if you engaged your mind with regards to religion.

    To equate the actions of communism with atheism is clutching at stars at best. In the same vein I could say that the Catholics are fascist... There were many sympathisers. I mean the jews did kill christ, right? It got hitler angry... Didn't the vatican collaborate with fascism at times?  

  15. # Blogger jonz

    So "anonymous"

    "Unless you are dealing with diehards and unless a religion is a threat to the state - Find the middle way."

    So I am not allowed to criticise religion? I have to "respect" your religious beliefs as "special", above and beyond other personal or private beliefs?

    What happened to freedom of expression?

    Does "fuck religion" now constitute hate speech?! Should I be locked up?!  

  16. # Blogger lone star

    anon,
    I AM making a stand and will continue to defend this post as I agree with what was said. There was not one thing hateful expressed in any way. I'm sorry that I find YOU the intransigeant one here. I do not debate - I'm right - your wrong goes no where!
    No one said religion alone has caused all the problems in the world, but it sure has played its part in most, not to mention it really is the only on going continuis threat historically - from the begining to now.
    I still dont get the point of most of what you have said including your strange anyalisis of WWII? ... or even what made you so upset in the first place over "fuck religion" .... I think you may be slightly delusional, and possibly catholic.  

  17. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Its funny Lonestar but i think its the post that is upset, angry and struggling to find a comprehension in what amounts essentially to *mans inhumanity to man* meted out in any number of ways throughout time.

    Religion like any other body politic is seized upon cynically for territorial, mysoginist, egotistical ends from within and without. I think you need to broaden your understanding of what religion is - or was - historically.

    The trouble isnt with religion , it is with humanity - the people within it. Corruption is not limited to religion and neither is violence. Surely you with all your philosophical input can fathom that. That was the point of several references above. If you read up on, say, the French Revolution you will see a rejection of everything including religion led to wholesale slaughter.

    I question everything. Including the pulpit hairdryers and similarly the indignant atheists!

    I reject large elements of all faiths but i also see enormous good and cohesion in some of them and ive had time relflect on life and death a lot so the atheist argument is empty and sad. The idea of believing in the inherent good of man is devoid of any meaning and that is after all what you are left with. I make an effort to understand atheism as my mother is one. Ive heard the arguments. But equally it was she who pointed something out to me once.

    Having had an accident that nearly killed her, myself and my father were doing our best to get by at home. My father is a devout man (with no shows of religiosity but who nonetheless needs and enjoys religion). None of the people in our street were in any way religious. Some as i recall were sneering atheists. However the only people in that road to come round and deliver food parcels (lol) were a muslim family two doors down. It is a part of their religion that they take care of neighbours in need and they did so very sincerely.

    It is important to realise that there is a natural beauty in doing what is right that can lead to a peaceful and pleasant existence. Virtues benefit our friends, family and neighbours. They very much are to be found in religion. They were also adopted and espoused not just by 'men of the cloth' but within the enlightenment context and by some of JOnzs american heroes above, largely extracted from religious values.

    That didnt make any of those men free of wrongdoing or incapable of enormous evil though.

    To me the rejection and persecution of christians, via atheism, in North Korea is an act of evil.

    Coming back to my last point above - I wont pretend that religion is the sole arbiter of hatred, violence and murder on the planet and chalk it all up to a bunch of shit. Thats pathetic. It seems to me that you were both willing to insist on your right to say 'fuck religion' but not that open to much else! Its very obvious to me that there is good in religion. The virtues encouraged by religion are of great benefit to the whole of civilisation. Its just silly i guess to ignore that. Maybe Jonz would like Franklins virtues instead since he posted the man as someone to admire? They are good.(but - same as religious ones seems to me - although i fail to see how these are not restrictive or demanding!). Franklin's intention was to concentrate on each virtue a week at a time to try and perfect himself. The essential premise of religion. Seems everyone was after the same! (id better duck and leave before you start booing)

    Temperance
    Eat not to Dullness; Drink not to Elevation

    Silence
    Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself;
    Avoid trifling Conversation

    Order
    Let all your Things have their Places;
    Let each Part of your Business have its Time.

    Resolution
    Resolve to perform what you ought;
    Perform without fail what you resolve.

    Frugality
    Make no Expense but to do good
    to others or yourself: i.e. Waste nothing.

    Industry
    Lose no Time. Be always employ'd in something useful.
    Cut off all unncessary Actions.

    Sincerity
    Use no hurtful Deceit. Think innocently and justly;
    and, if you speak, speak accordingly.

    Justice
    Wrong none, by doing Injuries or omitting
    the Benefits that are your Duty.

    Moderation
    Avoid Extremes.
    Forbear resenting Injuries
    so much as you think they deserve.

    Cleanliness
    Tolerate no Uncleanness in Body, Clothes or Habitation

    Tranquility
    Be not disturbed by Trifles,
    or at Accidents common or unavoidable.

    Chastity
    Rarely use Venery but for Health or Offspring;
    Never to Dullness, Weakness, or the Injury of your
    own or another's Peace or Reputation.

    Humility
    Imitate Jesus and Socrates.

    "That the tendency of virtue to promote the order of society, when we consider it coolly and philosophically, reflects a very great beauty upon it, cannot be called into question. Human society, when we contemplate it in a certain abstract and philosophical light, appears like a great, an immense machine, whose regular and harmonious movements produce a thousand agreeable effects. As in any other beautiful and noble machine that was the production of human art, whatever tended to render its movements more smooth and easy, would derive a beauty from this effect, and, on the contrary, whatever tended to obstruct them would displease upon that account: so virtue, which is, as it were, the fine polish to the wheels of society, necessarily pleases; while vice, like the vile rust, which makes them jar and grate upon one another, is as necessarily offensive." (Adam Smith)

    "A life of religious virtue is not a wretched existence of unhappiness, rather it is the means by which we, and all of those around us, may grow and prosper in love and peace". The fact that a number of people cant live up to them is indicative of humanity, not religion. Im afarid i have no idea what Jonz is talking about in his last comment, i would suggest he reads the good as well as the bad to formulate a less angry and possibly weak opinion. Noone can accuse that leeeengthy reposte of being knee jerk!  

  18. # Blogger lone star

    well Im sorry to have read this respose as I am running out the door... I will definatly come back..but I still side with Jonz here!! the post was his independant thoughts on nothing but the article ... if your gonna feel it was angry in away I would say it came from compassion for the man not hatred for religion  

  19. # Blogger lone star

    ok "anon",
    so I have been sitting here reading your last comment - still trying to figure what you are going on about?
    honestly when people leave such loooong comments its very hard to have any type of conversation. I dont even know where to start or what we are arguing? From this post and this post alone and in regaurds to "orginized religion" the man was refused a funeral service from this church for no other reason than being gay. I'm sorry but as a christian that makes me angry for lots of reasons - but if you say anything about this being wrong to "church goers" they will tell you all kinds of things they find inside the bible to justify this. and they encourage others to join in ....
    but I dont think you want to talk about the topic of this post. and yes I would insist on jonz's right to say "fuck religion" as long as religion continues to be fucked.


    "Religion like any other body politic is seized upon cynically for territorial, mysoginist, egotistical ends from within and without. I think you need to broaden your understanding of what religion is - or was -
    historically"

    ummm... are you saying religion is a political movement? I agree, and that is the very reason I do not support it as an "organization"....I dont know why you would say I need to "broaden" my understanding of anything .. I have studied it historically, literally, symbolicly and every other way possible - "I" want to know the truth!

    I know the problems of the world are the fault of humanity and the hope lies then in the hands of humanity.
    sorry I dont want to study the french revolution I'll take your word... but on the other side... lets not forget events like the spanish inqisition..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

    I really dont know what else to say, I dont know what point your trying to make?
    you say you ask alot of questions? I didnt see you ask one?

    not sure why you added the little lessons?

    try to be like jesus and socrates huh? that made me laugh...
    MY HEROS!!!! funny that socrates was killed for holding what the courts felt "athiest views" he was also a drunk ... both jesus and socrates were unemployed, they both were against the established organised religion of the time ...  

  20. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Well first up you have cited jonz anger at an action inspired by religion. I gave you one inspired by religion, good religious people whose single act of kindness stood out in a street of, well, um atheists really. So whats not to understand? Or are you still arguing from the premise that religion is uniquely evil. Do you think the religious are unique in their antipathy towards gays? So people use (wrongly) a book to justify their hatred. Thats new!

    Your first comment implies his anger at that incident. Id say that slamming someone into a gulag and torturing them for atheist ideals is on about a par frankly. The same atheist condemned a girl to the gulag for wishing to marry someone the state didnt approve of. Sound familiar? Whilst the blogosphere jacks off about religion people are living in that very unreligiously inspired horror camp.

    Regards the French revolution - read up on it. If you think the Spanish Inquisition is something then look up the origins of the word Terror. Look up Charlotte Corday - a woman who tried to stop the senseless secularist bloodshed that had overtaken the ideals of the enlightenment. The result? She and feminists were condemned. Very enlightened. Mysoginy unique in religion? Restricted to the religious? Read up Rousseau!

    If your starting point is the world is fucked up then religion is but one part of it. If you consider it was used egotistically, territorially, empiracally well newsflash ..so is every other body politic including atheism.

    And since then weve dumped religion wholesale so whats the problem. You mean this moral-less society free of god isnt living up to expectations? Well lol. Last night on the news in London we watch again as a bunch of tossers, without needing a book to justify their hatred, murdered a guy for standing up to their thuggish behaviour. Casually murdered him. His muslim Turkish family refused to exhibit hatred. They leave the shoes outside the door for their son when he 'returns' eg when his spirit goes to heaven. To me they exhibit what is beautiful about religion as i mentioned about the fanily in our street. Because the thugs werent motivated by the bible is that somehow less revolting? They sure as hell werent motivated by any morals such as 'love they neighbour'. If nothign else religion gave some moral guidelines in that respect, virtues as a basis (see above). Without those guidelines society simply needs more and more laws to keep people in check.

    I see where you are coming from regards those who stand up in church and bullshit. I hate fundis of all stripes and I question the validity of church led dogma versus what Christ wanted.

    To me this kind of atheism represents precisely that. Dogmatic and blinkered. I said earlier - find the middle way and i meant precisely that. The midway point between the good elements of faith and other systems.

    It was a critique of that, apologies if you didnt like it. But just exercising my right to challenge it. There is enough meat in the last few comments for you to get stuck into if you are serious.

    As for Socrates and Jesus yes bummer. But then having read the article about the two escapees from the North Korean atheist gulag in the here and now Im afraid i cant get them out of my head either.

    I have to go to visit a friend who collapsed of a blood clot on the brain and watch them fumble around like a vegetable. Perhaps Ill recommend atheism as a means to hope now that science has proven its limitations eh! ;)

    My blog is here:

    adirtymartini.typepad.com  

  21. # Blogger lone star

    Im sorry I still dont see what your arguing? Of couse there is good and bad in everything, people, religion, politics .... everything! NO ONE needs that pointed out!
    I am not an athesist, I do believe in God! and not from anything I was taught but from what I have learned!

    quoting jonz-
    "I am not anti-god,just anti-the-god-that many adherents to organised religion speak of. If there were a god, which I cannot believe there is, but if there was one, he or she or it would be super intelligent, compassionate, creative and not at all judgemental and fiery"

    I cant see what you could possibly find wrong, hateful, or anti religious with that statement.

    Im gonna have to say that yes, in alot of ways "religion" as an establishment of power is uniquely evil, and one only has to look around in todays world to see proof of that.
    so I really hate when people bring up history as a blame game.We live TODAY and are only resposible for the future! cause THAT if anything, is what we will be judged for!
    I hang my head in shame and apologise to the children of this world for the future we are preparing for them.
    The lack of morals in society can not be fixed or controled with rules and laws! God or no God involved.
    and unlike the pre-"modern religious" centuries - in 2007 humanity is in desperate need of some humanity! which really would mean to start celebrating life as a gift ... not some curse for what we are - followed by impending punishemnt, or even a fight for survival preached by some evolutionists.
    and the God jonz would wish existed is the very one I know does!...super intelligent, compassionate, creative .... and if we as humans were created in that image, that holds the answer.
    sorry to hear about your friend.  

  22. # Anonymous Anonymous

    If im really honest lonestar i dont get what you dont get. You certainly havent picked up on any single points and simply parrot what you feel over and over so im done here now. The idea that religion as an establised power is uniquely evil is a myth. Its also pretty ignorant. Regards his statement* i hold the same truths up to atheists. And from what ive seen of godlessness, its vile.

    *atheist is someone who doesnt believe in God. Period. You cant say 'if there was one this is how i imagine him' and then slate religion and essentially the religious as fucked up ideologues! Dont you see that?

    Mans corruption, mans inhumanity to man - theres the key. Man.  

  23. # Anonymous Anonymous

    oh and thanks. She used to be a writer. She cant even finish a sentence or sit up now. Its gutting. But that is what happens when you get old. Were all vulnerable. Its brought us together. Again. When God closes a door he opens a....? ;)  

  24. # Anonymous Anonymous

    godlessness being vile...

    to be clear i mean that in the context of a North Korean gulag. The REAL gulag of our times. And the acts of thugs in London who ripped away a young life so callously.  

  25. # Blogger jonz

    Godlessness being vile.

    "God" is a vile cunt that allows atrocities to happen in the first place, IMHO ;)

    Why doesn't your "god" intervene??!!!!

    What kind of god, who is omnipowerful and omnipresence allow MILLIONS to be shoved in to an industrial oven and ROASTED to death???? Well, the Jews did kill Jesus, eh? It's one of the known possible justifications for the holocaust.

    Surely that proves THERE ISN'T ONE!

    And, "anonymous", FYI it has been calculated that approaching a BILLION humans have perished specifically to due to RELIGION.

    And, for the love of god, and want of a better turn of phrase, can you please stop making such childish equations as atheism = gulag, communism, north korea.

    You sound like a fucking christian fundamentalist who believes that not believing in their "god" is tantamount to worshipping the fucking "devil". Get a grip.

    My original point still stands, RELIGION is fucked. By it's very definition it's RIGID and dogmatic.

    If you want to believe in supernatural explanations for the universe then go ahead. The universe is a wondrous place. But don't equate not believing in supernatural agents leads to mass murder.

    Yes you are right. it's the humans that carries out the atocities and not the religions themselves.

    But verses such as

    Quran "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter"

    and

    Bible "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

    these verses alone may have incited millions to their deaths. Yup stupid humans. but stupid them for following such "righteousness"  

  26. # Blogger lone star

    well anon Im sorry to see you say you are done here, since you have finally made a comment that is contained enough to reply to.
    I think the points you missed are that I do believe in God.
    I am religious.
    and that I do not argue in a Im right your wrong debate style.
    We have already agreed there is good and bad in EVERYTHING! so what am I to offer? the opposite opinion or fact to every point you make?
    when we have already established there are 2 sides?

    "The idea that religion as an establised power is uniquely evil is a myth." ?????

    ummmmm.... ? I guess there are many ways to take that. if you mean "uniquely" in a one and only sense ... that sentence is indeed true. But unique as far as ideas wrote out in black and white literal statements that are easily twisted, taken out of context and used to oppress or manipulate the masses into doing evil in the name of God and religion then its NO myth.
    and honestly what Ive seen...of some peoples version of "godliness" is more than vile when it becomes an "establishment".
    on a personal level my beliefs are complex and go deeper than I can express, like I said I center mylife around it and what I would strive to be is a beautiful person - INSIDE!! Love covers a multitude of sins since "god" searches hearts and minds, but Im not gonna give a sermon now.
    On your second paragraph... no I dont see that.
    ......and Im never sure how to interpret your use of the word "man"?  

  27. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Fuck religion, its nothing but a crutch for people (and terrorists) who cannot get through life on their own two feet.

    Under my rule all religion will be outlawed with anyone practising religion given the torture to death sentence. Together we can make the work athiest.  

  28. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Loadsa videos to watch here regarding religion ;;pls watch some of them or post this website on other sites or blogs or on facebook/myspace,yahoo, or on any other social network you can think of

    http://www.dangeroustalk.net/a-team/Why_We_Fight  

  29. # Anonymous Anonymous

    from an athiest

    please see some videos about religion

    http://www.dangeroustalk.net/a-team/Why_We_Fight  

  30. # Anonymous Anonymous

    10a
    "Fuck religion, it's full of shit."
    "Judism?" I suspect all factions of Judism praise Moses for freeing them from slavery. This is a fine place to start.
    If still slaves they'd be like the Egyptians or the Lybians:::They'd see all the cash and want some too. The structural changes in societies throughout the world, infected by the spread of Westernization, has poisoned the minds of even those whom the gods bestow/maintain favor. Iran comes to mind because, unlike Iraq, Iran has no end in sight, despite the uprising earlier, inspired likely by traitors who deliberately betray the people thinking they're "earning", much like so many blacks in civil Rights, Women's movement, etc.
    Understanding the wickedness and deliberately playing this part maximizes the evil people incurr, so to understand is actually the clue of absolute disfavor, mere steps from Damnation.  

  31. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Organised religion has been nothing but an impediment for our species. I find it hard to believe people still subscribe to that mind-numbing nonsense. The notion of a 'natural' God; an underlying order to the universe, seems to be far more logical and sane ideology than a personal god.  

  32. # Blogger Kold_Kadavr_flatliner, sub/dude

    I have found what few other human mortals on this playing field have yet to discover: a Way Home, past this violence and materialism that has so engulfed, so enveloped our populace on this journey to our demise; because you’re ignorant on how to rise above the whorizontal world and one-outta-one shall croak sometime, somewhere soon, God has set-up this magnificent feature on the Way either Upstairs or downtown: the Warning. Everyone (me, too) living on this planet will see and feel the Warning lasting about 20ish minutes, showing U.S. a gorgeous picture of Heaven, Purgatory (depending whether our sins demand a greater punishment before being allowed into the Great Beyond), and dagnasty Hell. Remember, God doesn’t condemn; we condemn ourselves by our sinful lifestyles of unbelief. The Warning’s just a wake-up call. Don’t believe me? Guhroovy. You will soon. God bless you with discernment: atheism is cool, isn't it, till you croak...  

  33. # Anonymous Anonymous

    So good post i like this post and i like your all blog and i hope to visit my blog Ancient Egypt for Kids and more like Ancient Egyptian Gods thanks again admin ,,,  

  34. # Anonymous Anonymous

    It's all lies. They're not even square.  

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