Veiled Christmas Speech

It's was all so predictable really wasn't it? The usual fare. Britain needs to be more tolerant. She's against the war in Afghanistan. She doesn't want a single person to die. That of course would include the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, and possibly Bin Laden himself. She didn't state that but unless she has subnormal intelligence, this is exactly what she means.

She asserted the usual lies that Islam is a religion of peace. No aknowledgement that British Muslims have any responsibility WHATSOEVER. However, mainstream Britain needs to be more tolerant. Riiiight.

She was complaining about the media just focusing on the extremists, saying why can't they concentrate more on the moderates like her. Which for the first part I agree, however somebody who wears the niqab and thinks the war on the Taliban is wrong is not a moderate.

22 Responses to “Veiled Christmas Speech”

  1. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Agreed. Hearing a Muslim saying others need to be more tolerant just sets my teeth on edge. It's that whole pot-kettle thing, I guess.  

  2. # Anonymous alison

    LOL. Wearing the veil isnt moderate. She doesnt know her Islam then. Glad I didnt watch it. As for the rest of us needing to be more tolerant. Until people like her started bleating on and on and on about tolerance we were. As I recall it was 3 muslims who decided *not* be tolerant on July 7 that caused the problem and ensured a great number of families are spending their second Christmas since without their loved one(s).

    Good to see she cares about her fellow muslims under the Taliban and Saddam. She can fuck right off. Save any reappearance for Halloween.

    On Christmas Day I was with friends including an Iranian woman watching the Queens speech. I suggested we turned over to watch this little number. She asked what it was about and was horrified when I told her. Only in 'intolerant' Britain.

    Anyway - merry christmas Jonz!  

  3. # Anonymous Anonymous

    I like this muslim alternative message best..

    http://bazatzi.blogspot.com/  

  4. # Anonymous Old Peculier

    She wins my dozy bint of the week" award.  

  5. # Blogger Malcolm

    So. There are 90,000 members of the British Army, and how many, like me, ex-members of HM forces ? So what can we do ? Eh ? Lets get together  

  6. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Hello from Spain. Peace be upon you.

    I am a Spanish reverted muslimah and... you know, I'm wondering why the F***k should I apologize for arab terrorism. Should I apologize, as spaniard, for Franco's dictatorship? Should any german today ask for our pardon for Hitler's crimes?

    And worst of all, if that *her* you talk about is a real girl, maybe you should link to her ideas in order to be fair... It's what we call netiquette.

    Hope not to be banned from you for being muslimah... It wouldn't be tolerant ;)  

  7. # Blogger jonz

    SMall Blue Thing.

    Are you a Muslim?
    Do you follow the word of the Qur'an?

    Please could you answer the following questions for me:

    Do you believe apostasy (leaving Islam) should be punishable by death under Islamic law?

    Do you believe that stealing should be punished by amputation of limbs?

    Do you believe that an adultress should be stoned to death?

    Do you believe that a woman is worth half that of a man?

    Do you believe that if a woman does not do as she is told, her husband may beat her?

    Many thanks  

  8. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Walaikum Salaam. I see that you have NOT answered my questions, although I'll do anyway.

    1.- Apostasy. No, I don't. And Islam neither does. Please translate this Juristic Dossier from Junta Islámica Española, and check your sources.

    2.- No, I don't. And once again, here is my juristic reason for not to do and still be a good muslim:
    Qur’án, surat 7, al-A’raf, ayats 26-28
    TariqRamadan.com

    3.- Quran forbids death punishment to adulterists, and there are severa hadiths in which Prophet Muhammad (peacebeuponhim) stops stonings among his tribe. You can check any version of the Quran and Shariah and see it by yourself. Faith is not the problem.

    4.- Is there any muslim who believes it? What's his source?

    5.- Quran forbids specifically to beat a woman, a senior and a child, whatever the fault. On the contrary, a man can be punished. If a woman is accused by her husband and she swears by Allah she's innocent, she will be out of any accusation. Check Qu'ran Surat 4.

    When you answer my questions, please tell me where have you found all these moronities. Have you ever seen a muslim, mate?  

  9. # Blogger jonz

    Small Blue Thing, I am pleased that you have answered the questions to the best of your ability. It is reassuraning, to an extent, that you do not defend or attempt to justify the barbaric practices carried out under Sharia.

    What does concern me however, is that an otherwise intelligent person is in such denial. Let me answer you one by one.

    1.- Apostasy. No, I don't. And Islam neither does. Please translate this Juristic Dossier from Junta Islámica Española,


    "All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others."

    "Some contemporary Shi'a jurists, scholars, writers, and Islamic sects have argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among Islamic scholars."

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

    How can you assert Islam does not say this when all 5 major schools of Islam agree that it does?

    ****

    2. You don't believe there should be limb aputations as punishments. Good for you. Thankyou for your link to Tariq Ramadan. I notice you don't deny that this is mandated in the Qu'ran, however.

    "As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power." Qu'ran 5:38

    "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter" Qu'ran 5:33

    Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html

    Your prophet Mohammed, it seems, was quite a cruel man, if Anas bin Malik is to be believed:

    "When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes"

    Souce: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.261

    Though again, I commend Tariq Ramadan on calling for enlightenment. However, I think honesty and aknowledgement comes before enlightenment, not denial.

    3. Quran forbids death punishment to adulterists, and there are severa hadiths in which Prophet Muhammad (peacebeuponhim) stops stonings among his tribe. You can check any version of the Quran and Shariah and see it by yourself. Faith is not the problem.

    "The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse.

    He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."

    There are many verses in the Hadith for stoning of adulterists

    Source: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/stoning.htm


    And here; ok not stoning admittedly, just death by starvation:

    "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. "

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.015

    Faith is not the problem eh? Why is stoning still going on in Saudia Arabia, Iran, areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan etc? Are these not deeply religious areas?

    ****

    4. Woman is worth half that of man - you said Is there any muslim who believes it? What's his source?

    Well thankyou for your question.

    "And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women"

    Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#282

    "unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females"

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/4/index.htm#176


    Any Muslim who believe this? Umm check Saudi Arabia, for one example

    In Saudi Arabia, when a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the prescribed blood money rates are as

    follows[citation needed]:

    * 100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
    * 50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
    * 50,000 riyals if a Christian man
    * 25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
    * 6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
    * 3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman.


    As you can see a Muslim woman is worth half that of a Muslim man. Not to mention the utter contempt for life for

    non-Muslims....


    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas

    ****

    5. Quran forbids specifically to beat a woman

    Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Jarir_al-Tabari


    What do you say to this? As a further question which I forgot to ask how do you justify the treatment of non-Muslims under Sharia?  

  10. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Small Blue Thing, I am pleased that you have answered the questions to the best of your ability.

    LOL

    (although it's not funny)

    Why do you take Wikipedia as the Only Truth and don't even bother on reading my sources? And why don't you even take a second to answer the questions I put on you before?

    If you had, you would have read that Tabari's hadiths are not considered true.

    By the way, are you christian? Beacuse St. Paul says in his Letters to Romans that Women haven't got a soul as we don't have the gift of the homounculus, and you don't seem to reflect about... Please, again, find in the Holy Quran where does it say a woman is less than a man.

    And if you don't bother on reading my sources, please, don't bother me either.  

  11. # Anonymous Derius

    "You would have read that Tabari's Hadiths are not true"

    from a posting above

    Complete nonsense. For a start, Muhammad ibn-Jarir al-Tabari is not noted for collecting Hadith (sayings and doings of the prophet Muhammed), but instead for being a Qur'anic commentator (Muffasir), whose Tafsir titled Jama'al-Bayan is the most widely known. He also wrote extensively on Islamic History.

    Secondly, as for his works being "not considered true", then I refer to this:

    http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/tabari.htm

    As one can see, Al-Tabari is considered "one of the best" in this article (written by a Muslim for Muslims), and his Tafsir mentioned above is also stated to be "one of the best". In short, Al-Tabari is widely considered to be an impeccible Islamic source, and should not be dismissed, despite what the poster calling himself/herself "small blue thing" has stated.

    And where exactly, would Al-Tabari have got the idea that husbands can beat their wives? Well, the Qur'an itself of course:

    "The righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husbands) absence what Allah would have them guard. As for those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill conduct, first admonish them, (next) banish them to beds apart, (and finally), beat them.
    Qur'an 4:34

    Of the ten most popular translations from classical Arabic into English, eight state "beat", one states "scourge" (Marmaduke Pickthall), and one says "chastise lightly". There can be no doubt then what the Qur'an actually says. It is Ironic that this is contained in Surat 4, which is exactly the one our friend said actually forbids this sort of behaviour! So, should we also now consider the Qur'an to be an unreliable source when assessing Islam then, eh?

    It should also be noted that the Islamic Scholar, Al Qaradawi, widely respected in the Arab world, (which is why Ken Livingstone invited him to London a few years ago) has also stated that husbands can beat their wives (but not on the face), if they are disloyal, which caused an outcry when he visited here. However, no doubt we will be told that anything Al Qaradawi says should also not be taken as true either.

    So there you have it folks. You can either go with the Qur'an, Al Tabari and Al Qaradawi about what Islam teaches, or you can go with a "small blue thing". My money is with the first option. How about you?

    I would now refute all the other ridiculous points that have been made by this poster on this thread, but unfortunately, I'm now meeting up with some friends to get pissed. Infidels like me do that sort of thing, you see!  

  12. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Derius,
    Is this a battle of interprations and beliefs?
    or one sided opinions and a display of a completly closed mind.
    Even when muslims come forward to defend themselves you call them what? .... liars? Wrong? delusional?
    What of the muslims all over the world fighting against the very things you throw back in their face?
    I see countries like Saudi Arabia always given as an example, what of the millions who fled places like that looking for freedom and still chose to be muslims and cry for the oppression of the people left behind.
    The world asked for peacefull muslims to stand up .... they did and are! only to be smacked in the face and pushed down by the very people who screamed for them to speak!
    You give the name of one person and call him one of the best.
    If you know so much of the koran and it's teaching why don't you know it's phrophcey and the warning that comes with it? figure that one out yourself!
    As a christian I guess the pope is my only teacher?
    You are building an army of hate in the name of who? and you are no different than the ones you call your enemy.
    Don't tell me now I am blind to a problem blah blah blah ....
    You build your army I'll build mine...
    one day you will either need us or fight against us since you are willing to die starting a war and I am will to die stopping it ......... see you in hell.
    and yes I know I am a bit dramatic so fuck your toughts on that as well.  

  13. # Anonymous Derius

    "Don't tell me now I am blind to a problem blah blah blah"

    "so fuck your thoughts on that as well"

    Tu s. Tin,

    It is obvious from your comments above that whatever my response is going to be, you will not give it any consideration (though I would be happy if you prove me wrong on that one). I am therefore replying to you only so that the other posters who read here can guage for themselves what the truth of the matter is.

    There are genuine reformers in Islam who are trying to bring about change (see Thomas Haidon, an American convert, as one example). When muslims start pretending that there is no argument in Islam for wife beating, death to apostacy etc, then they are sweeping the rug under the feet of these genuine reformers, who realise that there are such arguments in Islamic Jurisprudence, and are trying to refute them based on the teachings in the Qur'an Hadith and Sira. The only way Islam will ever be reformed is if arguments, formulated on the canonical texts themselves, can be provided to refute the radicals. I am fully behind those muslims who are attempting to reform Islam by doing this, and I will criticise those muslims who are pretending that such reform is not necessary. I hope the reformers are successful, for the consequences if they are not will be dire, and I will help them how I can by showing others that such reform is necessary, and that their work is invaluable.

    I am also confused a little by your stance. You have not provided any innacuracies in my previous posts, and I would be keen to be told if there were any. I was also only defending Johnz position on the treatment of women in Islam, and yet who have insulted me while directing nothing at him. Do you consider Jonz to be a warmonger as well? Does Sura 4:34 not say what I said it did? Is Al Tabari not then respected in the Islamic world? Do you think the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc is perfectly acceptable, or if not, has nothing to do with Islam?

    The poster named a "small blue thing" stated some factual innacuracies, which I pointed out. The fact that you may wish what he/she said to be true does not make it so.

    Stop ranting and start debating! And in the meantime, have a happy new year!  

  14. # Anonymous Anonymous

    I'm not a big fan of "debates" they solve nothing. Because to debate one must pick a side to argue and no topic is flat. I don't want to be right I want to make a difference.
    Don't think I do not know about the things you say, and I wouldn't say you are wrong.
    But first you give the name of one muslim as the example of Islam, now after my rant you offer some reformists?
    Why can't you do that always from the begining? You are not the first I have seen SAY you support these ... but I seldom see any doing it.
    Like I said when a muslim actually stands up like small blue thing tried to do ... she was attacked.
    I don't have to whish what she says is true, it already is to her.
    There are people who love God in every religion - then there are people who love religion.
    For every negitive issue in Islam you care to offer, I can find muslims all over the world fighting against it.
    I do not have the answer ... but I can not agree attacking all of Islam is the solution, to me it's another problem. I talk to muslims from all over. When they see some of the things out there said about them .... I can't come up with a combination of words to describe how they feel. On top of that they have the lunatics you group them with to deal with.
    I could write a book about this and go on and on ... but I'll stop, like you said .......
    "It is obvious from your comments above that whatever my response is going to be, you will not give it any consideration (though I would be happy if you prove me wrong on that one). I am therefore replying to you only so that the other posters who read here can guage for themselves what the truth of the matter is."

    ......... and I have had this debate already. Please look into the warning Islam gives it's self, it also gives the answer. If this post had anything to with jonz defending womens rights I might have to read it again? I must have missed that part? Do I concider him a warmonger?.... not sure? I do wonder if he enjoys a fight.
    Someone already said long ago ... force with diplomacy is the answer... I see one but not the other coming from him and everyone else.
    jonz once gave an analogy of the Koran being like a mirrior, ask him to explain that to you it was good... but I wonder if that applies to all who look into it .... and that is for him to understand.

    Anyway .... happy new year to you too, my celebration was last night (I have to work the real one).... 7 is a lucky number ... lets hope it lives up to it's rep.  

  15. # Anonymous alison

    Small Blue Thing.

    Christianity was and still can be challenged. It underwent something of a reformation. Islam on the other hand cant stand even the slightest criticism. Any criticism is generally met by worldwide islamic hysteria. When it finally grows up we can all have a proper debate about it. Until then it is and will remain a mysoginist death cult. Shame you freely chose to adopt this for spiritual guidance. As for this bit:

    Should any german today ask for our pardon for Hitler's crimes?

    They did apologise. Islams crimes are being committed and are still relevant.  

  16. # Anonymous Anonymous

    well, it looks like there is a very good chance "I" will become or already am the unpopular member of the drunkenblogging society.
    Alison,
    I agree with what you say about apologizing ... I don't know why she said that.
    but on whay else you wrote.... if I bring to you those calling for reform, screaming begging and dying for it!!! ....
    will you listen to them? and will you accept their apology?
    cause they are out there!
    the world wide hysteria is out there too, it's what we are all shown ...
    it's the tears on the outside of that going unseen.
    you shame her for her choice,
    her choice would be to stand with you against a common enemy... sorry, but I shame you for your debating ... a
    debators goal is never to end in conclusion or tie... it's to be the winner. which means you have to stick to your side. sounds like stuborn pride.  

  17. # Anonymous alison

    Yes they are out there. Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are out there calling for major reform. I respect them and anyone else who would call for the much needed islamic reformation (Rushdie for example). There is nothing in what Blue wotsit says that makes me feel that she stands with anyone on that side Tu. As for stubborn pride. Of what? Im not proud of the fact that the UK media platforms extremists masquerading as moderates or that so called 'forward thinking' sites liked Pickled Politics laud the reformers as bigots and publicists. We all then get lectured about tolerance but it works both ways i always thought. JOnz earlier post about the nos of attacks on muslims being non existent proves how tolerant we are so whats with the lectures from these veiled (or unveiled) lovelies? Im especially 'un'-proud of the fact that Britons will blow up other Britons on the tube to make a point or adopt the veil to make a point - eg we are intimidating you. The only winners in this 'debate' are the extremists. It has a long way to go but none of its major leaders seem all that keen on moving it along. So Islam gets the label it deserves.

    Anyway Happy New Year...!  

  18. # Anonymous Anonymous

    alison, I don't disagree with you.
    I have been called racist myself on pp more than once,
    and intolerant over the veil issue on this very blog ... questioning it as a cultural difference that has nothing to do with Islam.
    One of the things I respect you for is that on your site you often add some of the other side, and jonz should not stop pointing out the facts like the one you just listed.
    The thing is I am tired of seeing debates, I'm very impatient and frustrated with the world and everyone in it. The time now is not for fighting its for solutiuons that will lead to results.
    I have already said I don't want to be right ... I want to make a difference.
    Maybe it's because I have had some personal chats with blue thing that I understand her position better than what has come out in these brief comments. Why was she attacked and shamed?
    My heart is in England ... I feel all things point to you and the fate of the world is in your hands.
    I would never ask you to give in, I would beg you to do more.
    But what you are doing does not seem to be working. Why do you dismiss all and every single person called muslim? and group them together as the enemy?
    I don't have some fluffy love that makes them all a friend either... but I see a difference.
    These comments prove everyone is aware of all sides... but they chose to argue from one?
    I never claim to have the answer ...
    until then I will continue to stand in the middle, cause that is where a person trying to stop something stands. Sadly I feel I stand alone, and from personal experience I know the one in the middle is usually the one who goes home with a broken nose.
    Happy New year to you too...  

  19. # Anonymous Derius

    Tu s. Tin,

    Thank you for considering my previous response to you, and proving me wrong by doing so!

    I will not be giving you a bloody nose because you disagree with me. However, if you tell me I'm going to hell again, then that will be a different matter!

    I went in hard on "small blue thing" as I thought that he/she was deliberately trying to mislead people on this blog. If she was not intending to, then I apologise, but I had no way of knowing what her intentions were at the time. He/She must also realise that if Islam is to be reformed, then moderate reformists must be able to deal head on with the arguments I presented, and be able to refute them on Islamic teachings. If I can see holes in her arguments, then you can imagine how easy it will be for radical muslims who have studied the canonical texts for many years to see them too.

    Moderate muslims need to do more that just be moderate themselves. They have to reform Islam by refuting the radicals. They are the only ones who can do it, and I simply feel that they are generally not trying hard enough to do this (though there are many exceptions). If Islam is not reformed, then the future of mankind will be more bloody. Therefore, as for your question about whether I am genuinely behind the reformists, my response is that only a madman would not be.  

  20. # Anonymous Anonymous

    derius,
    "If Islam is not reformed, then the future of mankind will be more bloody"

    ...can we agree that is the understatement of the entire history of every word ever spoken?
    Then we would have some common ground at least.
    I don't disagree with most of what you have said .... though I'm not sure what you mean by "holes" in small blue things arguments .. who is a she - like me - by the way.
    and how do you feel she was trying to mislead anyone? wasn't she being encouraging by saying she was muslim and did not agree with anything that was thrown at her in regaurds to koran teachings .... she even offered links.
    If you apologise for not understanding her intentions, I accept, but please explain your strategy?
    A muslim comes forward...
    is presented with some questions .....
    and answers no to them all ........
    Then jonz says good try ... pat pat ..
    you are wrong! the real answers are all yes?

    ..............sorry emergency giot to go  

  21. # Anonymous Derius

    Tu s. Tin said

    “...can we agree that is the understatement of the entire history of every word ever spoken? Then we would have some common ground at least.”

    I think we do have common ground. It appears that we both believe that Islam has to be reformed otherwise the future will be much bleaker for mankind. It also appears that we also both believe that only moderate muslims can reform Islam, and that they should be encouraged to do so.

    “who is a she - like me - by the way.”

    I thought so, but I wasn’t entirely sure, which is why I kept accidentally flitting between she and he/she in my posts! I’m also pleased you clarified this as I had you down as a he!

    ”and how do you feel she was trying to mislead anyone? wasn't she being encouraging by saying she was muslim and did not agree with anything that was thrown at her in regaurds to koran teachings .... she even offered links.
    If you apologise for not understanding her intentions, I accept, but please explain your strategy?
    A muslim comes forward...
    is presented with some questions .....
    and answers no to them all ........
    Then jonz says good try ... pat pat ..
    you are wrong! the real answers are all yes?”

    Some understandable sentiments which deserve an explanation of my stance. However, It is not for me to defend what Jonz actually said, and I am sure he does not need me to do so.

    You said yourself that religion is often down to interpretation. This is true. However, with Islam, this is particularly relevant, as the Qur’an, unlike the Bible, is said to be the literal word of God. Therefore, debate over the exact meaning of phrases take on a whole new dimension.

    Thus reform can only occur if moderate muslims acknowledge that there are alternate interpretations of the Qur’an that the radicals are using to justify their stance, and refute those arguments head on by showing that those interpretations are incorrect/inconsistent when compared with Islamic teachings as a whole. When I see this, I find it encouraging. However, let us then compare this approach with what “Small Blue Thing” actually said on the matters of apostacy and the treatment of women. Some examples:

    “Apostacy (agreeing with the death penalty for). No I don’t. And neither does Islam”

    “Quran forbids specifically to beat a woman”

    She does not even give a hint here that there are verses that contradict these statements, and that there are many muslims who believe in them. I have already in a previous post highlighted the Qur’anic verse that relates to wife beating. As for apostacy, the statement by the prophet Muhammed "if anyone changes his religion, kill him" is amply attested in the Hadith, and is accepted as authentic by virtually all Islamic scholars. It appears in various forms in Bukhari, Malik, Abu Dawud, and other authorities.

    Am I pleased that “Small Blue Thing” does not believe in these things? Of course. Do I find it encouraging that she was not prepared to admit that these arguments actually exist? No I don’t, as by not even acknowledging them, she will never confront them and convince any muslims that those beliefs are wrong by the arguments that she presented in some of her links. That is not encouraging.

    If she was not aware of the verses and sources I have quoted in this thread, then there is nothing to be concerned about, as she was not attempting to mislead, and she was also not in denial about certain aspects of Islamic teachings. However, if she was aware of them, then she was either attempting to mislead people on this blog about how Islamic teachings can be and are being interpreted by some, or she was not being honest with herself about it. If she was unaware, then my response was too harsh. If she was aware, then I’m afraid my response to her still stands.

    You may or may not agree with me on what I have discussed here, but hopefully you now have a better understanding of what my position actually is.  

  22. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Derius,
    Thank you for continuing the conversation, and for taking time to explain your position.
    I do agree mostly, but I won't try to defend small blue thing any futher, hopefully she will come back sometime. I would like to see more muslims commenting on sites like this (hope that doesn't sound offensive to jonz, cause I don't mean it to be)
    Let me try now to have you understand my position.
    I am tired of seeing nothing but arguing every where, and I do not feel it is entierly the job of reformists to solve all the problems. If people like me and you can learn enough about Islam to see the dangers in the negative, why can't we also see the positives and use them against the extremists ourselves. I mentioned about the Islamic End time prophecy ... It warns against itself saying mosques will be full of people called muslim but who are farthest from it ... and lead by liars. It says alot, it also says the koran is the weapon to use against them.
    If you are going to attack them is using negitives the way?
    or does it strenghten the negatives?

    anyway, youve been good to talk with ... not many know how, or care to talk. They would rather debate. Sorry about the strange ending to my last comment ... and I never said you were going to hell ... though I may have indirectly said fuck you, just to get your attention. I'm evil like that.
    Why no link to your name? do you do any writing? I am courious to see what you have to say.  

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