Muslim Lawyer Refuses to take off Niqab

Disrepectful of great British tradition of not wearing a large black sack over one's head

Shabnam Mughal was dressed completely in black with a full-face veil leaving only her eyes visible.

The judge, George Glossop, asked Miss Mughal on Monday if she would "kindly remove her veil to assist with communication". He told her: "It will allow me to see your face and I cannot hear you as well as I would like."

She declined to do so and Immigration Judge Glossop briefly adjourned the case. Later in the day, he asked her a second time. When Miss Mughal again refused to remove her veil, the judge adjourned the case until next Monday, pending consultations with Mr Justice Hodge.

Miss Mughal, in her twenties, who was representing a Sikh businessman challenging the Government's refusal to permit his nephew to visit Britain, was not taking media calls yesterday. A colleague said she was upset by what had happened.

advertisementJavid Hussain, practice manager at the Law Partnership in Coventry, where Miss Mughal works, said she had worn her veil while appearing before tribunals in different parts of the country for at least the past two years.

Other Muslim women at the firm did not wear veils, he said. It was a matter of personal choice.


Read the rest here

I think we may have to actually ban the niqab and burqa as clearly a small minority of Muslim women are intent on stiring up trouble, being deliberately provocative and in my eyes extremely disrespectful to the wishes of non-Muslim citizens.

It has already been established by all major Muslim organisations the niqab or burqa is NOT a religious requirement at all.

If she and others like her feel so strongly about wearing the niqab then she should simply move to a country whose values and attitudes correspond with hers.

Where can Brits go to avoid such cringeworthy, embarassing. arrogant and frankly irritating Muslim women such as Shabnam Mughal? I find her Niqab offensive. I really do. But the authorities and the media rarely seem to give a fuck unless the person being offended is Muslim.

Judging from her picture, I'd say Saudia Arabia would suit her down to the ground. What on earth is she doing in a kafir nation such as Britain?

Update: Alison has an article up on Muslim women making a real stand against oppression

21 Responses to “Muslim Lawyer Refuses to take off Niqab”

  1. # Blogger R.Hussain

    established by who?
    The madinah university in saudi endorses niqab as a mandate, so does darul uloom chicago and Institue of Islamic Education in chicago, so does DArul Uloom ZAkariyya in camperdown and other Islamic institutions scattered throughout the african subcontinent, so do islamic institutions in Europe, Canada, India, PAkistan and malasia. So what general body of muslim scholars are we talking about. Please consider before you make a rash generalization. By the way i am a niqabi and i do not appretiate you enforcing your beliefs and views on me. So while i don't force another muslim woman to don the niqab i except the world not to force me out of it. Life is about learning and compromise, It is also about acepting the diversity of people around the world. That niqabi woman i would say had sucessfully integrated herself into society but that judge had qualms about her need to wear her veil.

    The end!  

  2. # Blogger jonz

    I am referring to British Muslim organisations such as the MCB.

    The point is she is not living in an Islamic country, and many non-muslims feel very uncomfortable with the niqab as it hides identity and is barrier to communication.

    It is also a sign of strict wahhabi Islam.

    Islam also states that adulterers should be stoned to death, that women are worth half that of men, apostates should be killed, and fighting holy war in the name of Islam will get you paradise with 72 virgins.

    Punishments under Islamic law include the amputation of limbs for stealing or "causing mischief in the land".

    The niqab is symbolic of strict Islam. I do not want strict Islam in this country. Sharia law also mandates second class status to non-Muslims, providing they pay the jizah tax.

    Under strict sharia law, those who "insult the prophet" are to be put to death.

    So forgive me if I don't want to be reminded of all that shit when I see some daft bint wearing a niqab.  

  3. # Blogger Tu s. Tin

    r.hussain

    jonz is right with what he says, more scholars have stated niqab as not mandated, it is symbolic of strict Islam.
    with your refrences especially.. Islamic law holds that women may not have prominent jobs, and are forbidden from working in the government. ... I would say a laywer is a prominenet job .... and a court is part of government... so for her to wear niqab in that position seems a bit of a contradiction in beliefs don't you think.  

  4. # Anonymous Anonymous

    http://www.islam21c.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18282&Itemid=18

    they dont seem to agree  

  5. # Blogger jonz

    Thanks Anon. It doesn't surprise me that Muslim groups think a ban on the burqa or niqab would lead to banning of hijab.

    They fail to understand the nature of the request. Not a request to stop being Muslim, just to see somebodys face...  

  6. # Blogger Arizona Anorak

    I'd love to be a judge in a case like that. I would respond this way:

    Baliff take her veil. If she resists, put the cuffs on her and lock her up then we'll try again tomorrow.  

  7. # Blogger Arizona Anorak

    I think we may have to actually ban the niqab and burqa as clearly a small minority of Muslim women are intent on stiring up trouble, being deliberately provocative and in my eyes extremely disrespectful to the wishes of non-Muslim citizens.

    Here in Arizona before September 11, I hardly ever saw a woman wearing the traditional moslem garb. After September 11 they were commonplace. Now I can't go to the grocery store without seeing a few of them.  

  8. # Blogger Marcus Aurelius

    I was reading recently some woman decided to wear a burqa and act normal in every other way.

    The idea was to see how her fellow American reacted to her. The notable part of the story wasn't how other non-Muslims reacted but how Muslims did.

    It came down to the burqa is not just supposed to cover the appearance but to weigh down the spirit.  

  9. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.  

  10. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    After September 11 they were commonplace.

    and why do you imagine that would be?

    marcus, i'd be very interested to read the article you mention. do you have a link to it online, or the name of the author?

    and jonz,
    i find it interesting that you say the point is the lack of tradition towards full veils in this country, and the resulting discomfort and communication issues you feel that arise.
    these are undeniably interesting isues to be discussed, but you don't really discuss them.
    you also mention the connection with some devout islam, almost as an afterthought and without showing how the veil represents that to you.
    you say that devout islam is something you do not wish for yourself.
    it seems to me that this is the more important issue to you, as it is a line you then spend several paragraphs on, albeit without showing how you feel the veil will impact on your life as a non muslim.
    you spend paragraphs discussing your reasons for disliking(and seeking to avoid) a situation of strict islamic law, but not one exaplining how you would end up in that situation beacause some women wear veils.

    what makes this doubly interesting is that you don't mention anything wearing the veil itself does, instead focussing on the connotations it has for you of sharia law and the like.

    i feel similarly uncomfortable about the connection between the robes of catholic office and child abuse, yet i have never felt the need to attack the rights of individual clergymen to wear those robes. i think to do so is redundant, as those robes are not what did the damage, and there is no guarantee(in fact it is statistically unlikely) that the person wearing them is personally responsible.
    women who wear the veil are not the ones stoning women for being raped. women who wear the veil are not flying aeroplanes into the wtc. women who wear the veil are not blowing up london buses. women who wear the veil are not shooting brazilian electricians. women who wear the veil are not hiding in caves making threatening videos. women who wear the veil are not lying about sadaams hussein's capability for war so that members of my family get sent to fight some cock and bull war with no end in sight. women who wear the veil are not testing nukes in defiance of the international community. women who wear the veil are not accusing the children mark foley contacted innapropriately of being 'predatory beasts'. women who wear the veil are not in the habit of shooting their coleagues in the face. women who wear the veil are not attacking people and videoing it on their mobile phones. women who wear the veil are not killing city-sized amounts of people in rwanda.
    this list can go on and on....
    but you probably get the idea.
    women who wear the veil are not the problem or enemy, and the issue of your discomfort with their wearing it is just that; your issue.

    get over it.
    it'll make it much easier to deal with real issues like hatred, violence and abuse if you do.

    if women's rights are a concern, then why not post on your blog about the evils of the sex slave industry? it's widely acknoledged as a massive problem, and yet it seems you'd rather talk about the evils of a veil.

    perspective.
    get some.  

  11. # Blogger jonz

    After September 11 they were commonplace.

    and why do you imagine that would be?



    They identify with Bin Laden? I think it's incredibly sinister or incredibly weak - or a combination of the two.

    Islamic terrorists attack - and the response of some Muslims is to become more Muslim.  

  12. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.  

  13. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    that question wasnt to you, sorry.
    i was directing it to the person who made the initial comment. i can see how it might have been easier to address it, rather than the criticism i made in the lengthier section of my post,the part that was directed at you by name.


    i'd say your point, that they identify with bin laden, is a possibility, but it isnt the only one.

    immediately after 11/9 the amount of muslims being attacked went up dramatically. people were understandably angry, and unfortunately many were also not very clever, and so a lot of people were attacked.
    many attacked were not muslim but merely brown, and i have yetto hearof onebeing attacked ho had any connection to terrorism.

    a similar suituation arose in india several hundred years ago, informing the sikh tradition of the turban.
    sikhs were persecuted for their faith(as they still are), and many were killed by bigots.
    the tale is told of one who was killed while his friend as not.
    the difference beteen them? the friend was not wearing his turban, and so as not easily identified as sikh by the murderer.

    since then, all sikhs wear their turban as a badge, so that no one will ever make that mistake again.
    they also traditionally carry swords, muchlike the black panthers began carryin guns to defend againt racism among the police forces of america.

    their answer to persecution as to stand up taller and be proud of their heritage.

    i think at least some people will feel a need to represent their religion without fear, to show those cowardly bigots(who can't even tell for sure who is muslim) that they are not scared of them.

    human history has more examples of people reacting to hatred of their kind by becoming more visible.
    itis a coward who hides out of the fear of bigots.

    it need not be a statement of support for violence. there is precedent to suggest it might be supoort for their faith, itself a faith of peace. if bin laden is using religion as a tool, it is important to remember that he is breaking the rules of the faith, much as george bush seems to have forgotten 'thou shalt not kill' and 'turn the other cheek'.

    he is muslim because he says so, much like george is a christian because he says so.


    now,i have engaged with you.
    could you please return the favour and engage with the bulk of my comment?

    it would seem only polite.  

  14. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    is it safe to assume you are not able to engage with my posts?
    you are still posting elsewhere on this site, yet you have not attended to the reasonable points i raised here.

    i am loath to deduce your motives from your lack of response, but it does look awfully like you are unable to answer me.

    i had no idea my challenge had been that fearsome.  

  15. # Anonymous Anonymous

    dalaidalmer,
    lol.
    Don't assume because he doesn't answer he is stupid.

    I can't speak for him but my guess for a lack of response would be not cause your fearsome, but just late to the conversation..... its been going on forever and to argue is pointless.
    I would like to talk to you though if its ok.
    Everyone makes goods points but never pulls together.
    I keep trying to produce some produtive thought process........... debates never solve a problem.
    Keeping with the veil topic, in my opinion it is more of a cultural issue than religious,
    ...one extremist use to fan the flames by playing the victim card.
    I think you are wrong about the veiled bombers ... but thats an interesting connection ... since female terrorist have been given permision to remove the veil so as not to draw attention to themselves.
    Heres a link to a brief conversation with a muslim friend ...

    http://soulheartmindbody.blogspot.com/2006/12/wipe-out-silly-customs.hthe tml#comments

    the school teacher in recent news is another good example ...
    in a country like saudi arabi it is most likely a female teacher would teach an all female class and remove the veil. See where my thinking goes?
    The veil does not fit into the british culture.
    to answer your question of how will it affect the life of a non muslim?
    If more women chose to wear the veil in a way that seperates them futher from the society, their problems will only increase. They will continue to blame the society for a seperation they chose for themselves .... somehow it becomes an attack on Islam, isn't it actually an attack on the society?
    It is not bigoted or racist to want to protect and defend your cultural freedoms inside your own cultural.
    I have been studying sociology where it says we as humans seem to work against evolution by supporting our weaknesses, jonz makes an interesting point then ...

    "They identify with Bin Laden? I think it's incredibly sinister or incredibly weak - or a combination of the two.

    Islamic terrorists attack - and the response of some Muslims is to become more Muslim."

    I agree it would be a combination of the two ... weak pepole - sinister leaders.
    what do you think?  

  16. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    i don't agree that they are doing so out of a show of support for bin laden.
    some may be, and i have no way of guaging that without meeting any(i havent) and some certainly are not(i have met those. several.)

    i'm not suggesting jonz is stupid, and you'll notice i dont use that word to describe him.
    i ask him if he is not able to answer my points, which, seeing as he has engaged with me already without answering me fully, seems a passably acceptable deduction.


    when you speak about british culture and how the veil fits in, i wonder what experince you have of the massive variety of culture that mkaes up britain.
    even before the great employment drives of the last centurty(that's when most black and asian folks came here, answring advertisments and initiatives to get cheap labour into the country) britain's has been a dieverse and nebulous culture.

    i can't think of a single cultural norm that is ture of all brits, except perhaps slpeaking english.

    even that isnt the case, however, as many in wales and scotland spoke their own languages. those are dying out in favour of english(as the name suggests, the language of the culture of only one of the four nations that make up britain, and even then that ignores the cornish) and many predict gaelic will be dead well within the next hundred years.

    whereabouts in the UK are you familiar with?

    what cultural norms are you familair with that you would define as quintisesentially british?  

  17. # Anonymous Anonymous

    you talk to much  

  18. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    not at all!
    you read too little!

    seriosuly, though, is that all you can say? i asked you some direct questions about your experience of british culture, something you seemed confident to assess.

    were you just guessing?  

  19. # Anonymous Anonymous

    hummm... do I want to play this game? ... and what are the rules?
    seems you want attention paid to you, so ok.... I never said I beleive anyone supports Bin laden ... it was only part of the comment I copied and there was a question mark at the end of it... the rest of what was said, I do agree, and stated ... weak people ...sinister leaders.

    what you said was, he is not able to engage with your post... if your not attacking intellegence, please explain in what way you assume he is unable to engage then? since you went on to add time did not seem to be the problem since he had gone on posting.

    I think I can say with confidence ..
    a female teacher covering her face in a public class is not part of the "british cultural norm" am I wrong? I also added in a country where it is - the society works around it in a way that fits.
    How do I know about British culture? maybe I read some books,maybe I study culture, maybe I visited, maybe I'm just not stupid either. I brought up nothing about language, or diversity. Two things I love in this world.
    Let me ask you now what personal knowledge of muslim culture do you have?
    Inside an Islamic state an unvield woman would be very offensive.. in fact in some places she would be made to cover. Would she go to court over the matter? I doubt it.... and would it cause outrage with in the entire non muslim population of the world? I doubt that too.
    Now lets get me.... I don't think you answered or thought about any of my points either. I thought I aproached you in a very friendly manner, in fact I said I would LIKE to talk to you because you seemed at first to be a person to communicate with. I said I like to think and no one ever pulls together, they just like arguing points.... you just proved mine.
    Maker of men - meet Diogense.. seeker of men ...
    you have been tested.  

  20. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.  

  21. # Blogger DalaiDahmer

    what you said was, he is not able to engage with your post... if your not attacking intellegence, please explain in what way you assume he is unable to engage then?


    i don't, basically.
    i can imagine a million reasons why he might not be able, and it is only you who has mentioned stupidity as one.
    do you know him? does that seem likely?
    i don't, so i have refrained from suggesting a specific reason.
    i was hoping he might tell me.

    I think I can say with confidence ..
    a female teacher covering her face in a public class is not part of the "british cultural norm" am I wrong?


    i think the point is that there is no such thing as a cultural norm in a country like britain, a country made up of several groups and cultures.

    we have two words for pig in english.
    pork, for the meat, and pig, for the animal. same with beef and cow.
    we have those because the anglo saxon language was at one time the language of the staff, the cooks, etc, and was how they referred to the animal they killed and made into dinner. the norman rulers, french by today's geography, only ever saw their food on the table, and so their word's became the norm for the animal as a foodstuff.

    this is one, archaic, example of how british cultural norms are far form universal. they are subject to change at all times, and to pretend that they are not is kinda ridiculous.

    christianity originates from another country, yet it is being suggested as a cultural norm by some.

    I brought up nothing about language, or diversity. Two things I love in this world.

    me too. cool.
    i mentioned language because it is one great example of culture that we can follow as it grows and spreads, or as it dies out.
    there are other examples of culture, but i think language is a great example of the nebulous nature of the culture of the UK. i could have used food as an example, perhaps talking about curry as a british tradition. i love a good curry almost as much as i love language.


    I also added in a country where it is - the society works around it in a way that fits.

    i think you'd be surprised.
    i'd suggest visiting one of those countries rather than trusting what you read or are told.
    i'm not saying you can't glean truths from books(or the net, or movies), but there are so many conflicting versions of the truth that it is hard to know what to trust.
    as a friend of mine pointed out, by showing me a funny video, movies have depicted arabic and persian people as terrorists and not a lot else for much of my upbringing. (that video is here.) for one thing, i didn't realise most iranians are not arabic until i was in egypt and made friends with a chap from arak who attempted to teach me farsi(yeah, i sucked at it. they have a huge alphabet).


    How do I know about British culture? maybe I read some books,maybe I study culture, maybe I visited, maybe I'm just not stupid either. I brought up nothing about language, or diversity. Two things I love in this world.
    Let me ask you now what personal knowledge of muslim culture do you have?


    i have been to muslim countries, visited mosques and have spoken with friends and colleagues about their religion. i am also a member of a couple of faith-based message boards and moderate one that often covers such issues. (they are the issues of our times for a lot of people, after all)
    what do yo mean when you say maybe?


    Inside an Islamic state an unvield woman would be very offensive.. in fact in some places she would be made to cover. Would she go to court over the matter? I doubt it.... and would it cause outrage with in the entire non muslim population of the world? I doubt that too.

    i'd like to know which country you mean.
    i'm not saying you are wrong, of course. i wouldn't know the truth of it, as i haven't been everywhere.
    i do know of at least one christian country in which a woman is forced to wear 'respectful' clothing by law, and have witnessed my mother having her attire tested to make sure she was decent.(she was made to kneel, and if her skirt had not touched the ground she would have been arrested. that country was malawi.) i remember her being very frightened, as the policeman asking her to kneel had a gun, something that was not at all common in britain at that time.

    Now lets get me.... I don't think you answered or thought about any of my points either. I thought I approached you in a very friendly manner, in fact I said I would LIKE to talk to you because you seemed at first to be a person to communicate with.

    oh, ok.
    i thought i was communicating.
    if you want, i can reassess any of your points and talk to them specifically.
    if you'd like that, just ask me any questions you'd like me to answer and i'll do my best.

    I said I like to think and no one ever pulls together, they just like arguing points.... you just proved mine.

    i'm a collaborator at heart. i prefer cooperation to competition, and i think that lies at the heart of everything i do, save when i enter actual competitions(y'know, like when i was a swimmer). i'm not arguing for the sake of it, but i apologise if i have given you this impression.

    Maker of men - meet Diogense.. seeker of men ...
    you have been tested.


    i'm not sure i understand.
    were you testing me?
    where you not attempting to communicate with me?  

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