So whose fault is it really that innocent Muslim men are being arrested?

UPDATED AT BOTTOM

by Muriel Gray

Let’s imagine for a moment that a small but potent cell of ginger-haired, freckled people began a terror organisation and started slaughtering their fellow citizens with suicide bomb attacks in the name of some red-haired god. Would the police be right or wrong in such circumstances to regard all ginger-haired, freckled people as potential suspects? The logic would surely be that not all red-haired people were terrorists, but that all terrorists were red-haired, and not to act upon such knowledge would be folly. So what must the police do when the same situation exists in reality, the fact being that not all young Muslim men are terrorists, but all terrorists are young Muslim men?

Should they perform a dawn raid on a few Jehovah’s Witnesses, or place a family of Quakers under surveillance just to show how even-handed they are? What would we think of such policing?

The problems here are many, complex and seemingly insoluble. For a start, as demonstrated by the shocking undercover documentary last year that saw four police officers sacked, the British police force is harbouring more than its fair share of racist and bigoted idiots. The harassment of black and Asian people, not just Muslims, has been going on largely unreported for many years and has resulted in the loss of co-operation with the authorities across a whole variety of communities containing ethnic minorities.

But just as all Muslim men are not terrorists, not all police officers are racists or bigots. We have to believe that the majority of them, in common with the majority of British Muslims, are people who want to preserve peace and security and not to cause conflict and strife. With that in mind, the residents of Forrest Gate seem to be forgetting the fact that suicide bombers kill indiscriminately, blasting the legs off bus and train-riding Muslims as happily as they tear apart infidels. There is no “us and them” when it comes to terrorism. The police, one would like to think, care just as much about the safety of the Muslims in Forrest Gate as they do of the residents of Hampstead or Chelsea.

The difficulty is that it is the police’s job to discriminate, to act on hunches and preconceptions, and sometimes to judge quickly on appearances or tip-offs to try and bring their suspect before court. They are paid to be suspicious. Then it becomes the judiciary’s job to be blind to anything except hard evidence. One cannot police effectively with political correctness. If young religious fanatics are the ones who blow us up, then young religious fanatics who have no intention of blowing anyone up will nevertheless continue to be of more interest to the police than young farmers from Fife.

So why do Muslims not take to the streets in furious demonstrations, not against the British police but against the psychotic killers that have made innocent Muslims the subject of police suspicion and non-Muslims afraid of their fellow citizens? Let’s hope that the answer is that it’s asking far too much for everyone to be as forgiving as lovely Dermot, and that the years of being made to feel like second-class citizens in the country of their birth has quite understandably taken its toll.

That’s the good answer, because their ire would be justifiable and it would present society with a horrible wrong that can be righted with time. The bad answer would be that they don’t demonstrate because the core aim of the terrorists, that of bringing about an Islamic Britain, is one shared by a majority of Muslims, even moderates who might despise the suicide bombing route but nevertheless wish it to happen peacefully and without bloodshed. If this were true, and let’s hope it’s not, for the implications are uncomfortable, it might explain the deafening silence from the Muslim community concerning terrorism committed in their name. After all, there are countless Jewish groups who protest constantly, noisily and vigorously against the policies of Israel, which they not only despise on the behalf of Palestinians, but they also feel stoke up anti-Semitism and hatred. Where is the Islamic equivalent?

Full article at The Sunday Herald by Muriel Gray

UPDATE:

If you have seen the two brothers arrested in Forest gate, you will have seen identical looking men, with grade one shaved heads, and full-on Koranic unruly beards. I thought to my deeply predujudiced self, they might not be terrorists, but they are certainly fundamental Muslims.

In a comment piece today in The Times, something else is revealed, quote

Given the publicity surrounding the raid, there is certainly interest in what the brothers had to say. Whatever their feelings, though, they would be well advised to tread carefully. To his credit, Mr Kahar said that he had nothing against police officers. And he stopped well short of the asinine calls for Muslims to stop co-operating with the police, made by some purporting to speak for the local community. But the brothers revealed a fondness for “jihad”, which was defined as providing support. It is to be hoped that they “support” a tolerant and multi-cultural Britain [you mean "tolerate" British culture?]
Britain under siege? Why did they become "deeply religious" after 9/11? Wtf is going on? And what are we to do with the soft jihad? It's certainly wrong to use violence against those who do not seek use violence themselves.

21 Responses to “So whose fault is it really that innocent Muslim men are being arrested?”

  1. # Anonymous Anonymous

    its MI5's  

  2. # Blogger jonz

    MI5 have an incredibly tough job to do, it would be made easier if intelligence from the Muslim community was available. There are 1.6 million Muslims in the UK, the Jihadists work within this community, they are known to others in the community.

    And yet intelligence from this large community is next to nothing. It's easy to criticise our security services, but it seems there damned if they do and damned if they don't, by some at least.  

  3. # Anonymous sonia

    despite the existence of jewish groups against zionism most people still conflate jewishness --> zionism.

    it's ridiculous to state muslims haven't condemned the terrorist attacks. where has muriel been? does she want someone to 'create' an organization which says i'm against terrorism - will that suffice? well how about all the people who happen to be muslims and who are in favour of peace and human rights - e.g. myself. - is that not good enough! How dare someone suggest that by being in favour of universal human rights and peace for EVERYONE that isn't sufficiently 'anti-terrorist'. Perhaps Muriel needs to take a good look around at global civil society initiatives.

    In any case - it sounds like she has made certain assumptions about the ‘Muslim Community’ - when she says “So why do Muslims not take to the streets in furious demonstrations, not against the British police but against the psychotic killers that have made innocent Muslims the subject of police suspicion and non-Muslims afraid of their fellow citizens? ”

    there have been plenty of voices condemning the terroris. i do resent the following:

    ” The bad answer would be that they don’t demonstrate because the core aim of the terrorists, that of bringing about an Islamic Britain, is one shared by a majority of Muslims,” - well!

    excuse me? similar logic to thinking ’so all the mothers at home with their kids who didn’t go out to demonstrate against x y z every single day are in favour of x y z.’ or the reason there is so much political apathy in britain and no one votes is because everyone is against democracy.

    And then - the other point -the terrorists want to bring about an Islamic Britain - well do they? if they did - then they’ve done the one thing that will ensure that will never happen! in any case the other point - the majority of muslims want an Islamic Britain - is pure and utter hogwash. if people Really wanted to live in an islamic state they’d all be sitting in Saudi and Pakistan not here.

    the problem clearly with this Muriel woman is she’s treating ‘Muslims’ as if they’re some funny community that she doesn’t understand the dynamics of. the bottom line is that the dynamics aren’t any different to the wider community. the ‘argument’ you hear from some islamic-y types about ‘oh the whole continent of america must be evil because they haven’t gone and done anything about Bush, so they must all be against us’ is another example of this kind of not very reflexive thought.  

  4. # Blogger jonz

    Sonia, 52 people died on 7th July. There were no protests from Muslims

    After raiding of suspected terrorists, 300 Muslims protest.

    Do you see what message it sends to the non-Muslim community???

    I am sorry, but if I was a moderate Muslim I would feel it my duty to shout and protest against terrorism.  

  5. # Anonymous alison

    Sonia -

    The problem with 'this woman'?.

    'She' is treating muslims 'how'?

    Rubbish.

    Muslims themselves are the ones protesting at alleged brutality against THEIR community. They make a big point of it. Read the banners. They continue to draw fences around themselves needing cossetting and special treatment.

    Whos fault is it then that people see them as seperate and make 'assumptions'? The focus since last year has only been on protecting muslim sensibilities above and beyond all else starting with cries of 'unfair' re profiling on the tube and ending with 300 people trotting out to protest what WAS a necessary raid at Forest Gate. All this following 'those' demos in February -attended by the brother of one of those involved in the raids- in which Islam featured heavily?

    The move has been to deliberately inflame matters by crying foul play and police 'brutality'. One of the signs displayed recently referrred to the police as 'British'. wtf? They need to define the police nationality they are SO much a part of the 'wider community'??

    Yvonne Ridley who claims to represent the community and speaks in a position of authority puts in an appearance and throughly shit stirs again drawing distinctions- hows that for 'reflexive thought' btw?

    What other conclusions IS the wider community suppose to draw after all this.

    What voices speaking out against terrorism are you talking about?

    I must have missed the bit where muslims were united against terrorism after July 7.

    Incidentally plenty of mothers were united and highly VOCAL against Irish terrorism and general brutality of the IRA's murderous ways. There IS a duty.  

  6. # Anonymous Anonymous

    there were muslim protests against the terrorist attacks! They protested along side Christians, Jews, and Athist's alike!  

  7. # Blogger jonz

    Anonymous you're saying there were Muslim protests against 7th July attacks?

    Where? How many? Do you have a link? First I've heard of it.

    There's endless links of Muslim demos I could give you. Unfortunately they all support the extremist cause...  

  8. # Anonymous Ant

    "Yvonne Ridley who claims to represent the community and speaks in a position of authority puts in an appearance and throughly shit stirs again drawing distinctions- hows that for 'reflexive thought' btw?"

    Alison, do you think that the majority of muslim people (I'm not going to say the "muslim community", as I doubt Kurdish muslims and somalian muslims would band themselves together in such a way) are actually happy with the likes of Yvonne Ridley, Galloway, the MCB? The MCB seem to particularly act as Blair's puppets instead of being critical of the "muslim community" and actually correctly admitting, and also dismissing, claims that have been made. They're no better than a government spokesman with a camera in front of them.  

  9. # Anonymous Tim Baste

    alison:

    "alleged brutality"

    So they were only allegedly shot now? Or does being shot for possessing aspirin not constitute brutality any more?

    "Whos fault is it then that people see them as seperate and make 'assumptions'?"

    Bigots, racists, whatever you want to call them. Let's not quibble over terminology.

    "300 people trotting out to protest what WAS a necessary raid at Forest Gate"

    Please demonstrate why this raid was necessary, and how you know this. This statement is a million miles away from anything I've heard from the police or anyone else, but maybe you know something I don't. Necessary for what?

    Personally, I would like to see this "duty" taken to its logical extreme. I would like to see Alison and Jonz on the streets every time some posse of NF-affiliated thugs attack a minority group or whenever any KKK hood drags a black man through the streets. Otherwise I will have no choice but to assume that they are objectively pro-lynching (although come to think of it, that's not too much of a stretch).

    For some reason, though, white people aren't suspected of having the same Borg-like hive mind that Muslim communities appear to be saddled with. I wonder why not?

    (And to pre-empt the inevitable race/religion retort: does a minority of white extremists sometimes inflict violence upon non-whites? Does a minority of extremist Muslims sometimes inflict violence on non-Muslims? These are just ways in which we can classify two groups of people, so why are all Muslims suspects in ways that white people are not?)

    Anyway.

    Here: "UK Muslims issue fatwa against London bombings - Over 500 British Muslim leaders and scholars today issued a religious decree criticising the July 7 blasts here, saying suicide bombings were 'vehemently prohibited' in Islam."

    Here: "Muslim leaders condemn extremists over cartoon protests - LONDON: Britain's Muslims have called for prosecution of Islamist extremists who chanted inflammatory slogans and carried provocative placards at a protest march here at the weekend against the 'blasphemous' cartoons of Prophet Muhammed published in European newspapers.

    Here: "Muslims in Reading have been holding special prayers for victims of the London bomb attacks.
    Worshippers gathered at the Jemme Masjid mosque, Alexandra Road, Reading, on Friday lunchtime. '[Local muslims] condemn what happened because the Muslim community is a really peaceful community,' secretary of the mosque, Bashir Chaudhri, said."

    Here: "Arab world condemns London blasts - Deadly blasts that rocked London's underground trains and a bus have drawn shock and sympathy from several Arab capitals - some of them all too familiar with carnage on their own streets."

    Here: "Leaders of South Florida's Muslim community met Friday to convey their sympathy and to denounce the bloody London bombings believed to be the handiwork of Islamic terrorists"

    Ho hum. Bigotry must be such hard work sometimes, eh? Sonia is to be commended for coming here and even trying to engage y'all in dialogue.  

  10. # Anonymous alison

    That was my point ant in response to Sonia. No moves to openly and publicly dismiss Yvonne as unhelpful and likely to create more rifts. But we DO hear from the members of the community immediately over alleged police 'brutality'?

    "Because of this breakdown in trust you then see Muslims getting far more agitated and angry" Muslim Public Affairs Committee, today.

    Yet another representative voice not 'agitated' or 'angry' about terrorism and its affects on us all.  

  11. # Anonymous Ant

    If you think muslims have the intelligence to plot against the country and mass murder, then give them some intelligence for being able to INDIVIDUALLY make the decision that Yvonne Ridley is simply an idiot, as many have done.

    Besides, when the British public think that most muslims support Respect (who are considered the voice of muslims by the british public, in essence) and then the main man himself rejects Yvonne Ridley's comments, then isn't that enough? You want someone who DOESN'T represent the majority of muslims to further dismiss something? See, people like yourself would probably be happy if MCB did speak out with fiersome anger. But, a lot of muslims I know and work with consider the MCB to be as pathetic as the Respect party, and the MCB are Blair's key muslim allies. What's there to be 'agitated' or 'angry' about? It's so minor compared to other issues ie. the state of our intelligence services.

    Individiually dismissing her as a loon is enough. It's quite insulting for people like her, whose career is founded upon speaking 'for the british muslims', say such pathetic things when communication, as you point out, is not at it's best. It insults the authorities, who I think a lot of asain/muslim people did have belief and respect for, the average British white man and every free-thinking muslim who doesn't feel they need to join a group (MCB, Respect, terrorist cells or otherwise).

    If a Labour politician said something ridiculously stupid and Blair dismissed it, then why would a conservative MP need to?  

  12. # Anonymous cecilbdemille

    Maybe the Met needs to subcontract its anti-terrorism activities to the Israelis.

    At least they don't make grossly stupid blunders like killing innocent Brasilians or raiding a house with 250 officers and not finding any evidence.  

  13. # Blogger jonz

    Or allowing 52 people to blow up on the Underground & buses.

    Damned if you do....  

  14. # Blogger Malcolm

    The Met seem to have been totally useless. People interviewed in the area of the raids claimed they were aware of the surveilance operation. If that was true, then if these two men were up to no good, they would have removed anything incriminating. Wehere did the Met get thier 'intelligence' from ? Did they have an informant ?  

  15. # Anonymous Anonymous

    the guy that got shot said last moight that he did not blame the police for their actions and understood that they were doing there job, and serving the community, his only greivance is with the man or woman who gave the go ahead. I think thats an important statement and should be given due credit.  

  16. # Anonymous Anonymous

    Apparently, this was a case of mistaken identity. The police believed the brothers had criminal records and that there was a third brother who'd attended one of the rallies against the Danish cartoons. It turns out they don't have criminal records, there isn't a third brother, and in fact one of these two brothers had applied to become a part-time Police Officer and been vetted and accepted. Quite an astonishing cock-up, for which the only explanation I guess is "they all look the same".  

  17. # Anonymous Anonymous

    yeah i heard that too, wonder if he will still join up?  

  18. # Anonymous tim baste

    Regarding the update to yer post, Jonz, here's what the victims actually said:

    ABDUL KAHAR: "My understanding of jihad is to strive and help people.

    I don't see jihad as the way these cults think. I don't class them as Muslims, I don't class them as representing Islam.

    The way my father has taught me, the word jihad is the way we strive to help people. I do believe jihad is good.

    Violence is not in my nature. It's not in my religion. Islam is alienating that. Islam has nothing to do with that. Islam is peace.
    "

    ...and...

    "I'm a law-abiding citizen. I was born and bred in east London. I love my town.

    I ain't done nothing to this country. This is my country. I love everyone around.
    "  

  19. # Blogger Malcolm

    If this Met raid was mistaken identity, that is two very bad things:
    1. Innocent men were arrested and injured, and held for 1 week without charge.
    2. The people who are planning an attack are still free to carry out an attack.
    Ian Blair is a career policeman who has no place heading Britains largest police force. A suitable job for him would be devising new paperwork for details of lost umbrellas on the underground.
    How did this man become enobled ? Is it hereditary or was it for services to the paperclip industry ?  

  20. # Anonymous tim baste

    That sounds reasonable enough to me, Malcolm, but despite the shooting, beating and imprisonment without cause of two innocent men, Alison has previously informed us that this raid was "necessary".

    No word yet on why she thinks so and how she knows it, but I presume she'll let us know shortly. I'd hate to have to conclude that she just pulled it from betwixt her glutes.  

  21. # Anonymous alison

    Tim,

    An MI5 agent (with a low IQ lol) provided technically-accurate details of a chemical bomb, but nooo you can hardly call that grounds for suspicion.

    The family has links to Islamic extremists and for the purposes of this 'argument', we’ll ignore the looney rantings of the suspects' sister that you endorse eg the police raid was 'barbaric'**. Though they are something of a clue.

    Fuck yeah 'necessary' when the security services learned of information that was potentially life threatening, that one of the ‘innocent’ suspects had multiple convictions including firearms. Forgoing the suspect's long history with the law might just tip the balance on his claim to be 'traumatised'.

    Far from being an overreaction based on 'bogus' intelligence, the deployment of armed officers was a response to the fact that the address had been known to have been used by a convicted armed robber - with an unaccounted for firearm. (But he was still traumatised when the police came in with big guns, ahhhh). And far from there being 250 police rampaging through the house - the majority were deployed to secure the area. The search, which ‘found nothing suspicious’, has in fact uncovered large amounts of cash.

    In summary the MSM told us that an ordinary Muslim family (rubbish) was raided by police who were armed unnecessarily (rubbish) and that nothing suspicious was found (rubbish).

    Interestingly one of the brothers is out in his Brazil t shirt to complain of police brutality and show his solidarity with, ummm, what. The non brutal Brazilian police**?  

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